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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Jeremy: I enjoyed this movie
more than I have enjoyed most
of the last few Marvel movies.
Emily: Same.
Ben: I'm sorry, that's Sir Mark
Rylas and his royal kitey whiteys.
Tina: we will, I'll just put
a pin in those tighty whities.
Ooh,
Ben: I'm joking.
We do not acknowledge or respect
the British monarchy on this show.
Tina: yeah, that's fine.
Well, but I do respect Broadway.
and I do have a Mark Ryland's
Broadway story that we can perhaps
we can get you can whenever you want
to hear it, I'm ready to tell it.
Emily: Okay,
demon, demon, a dragon.
beep,
Jeremy: alright,
Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.
Tonight, we're talking about
a movie that feels like it was
made for us, for this podcast.
It's Sexy Cannibals.
It's soundtracked by Trent
Reznor and Atticus Ross.
Reznor?
Reznor.
Soundtracked by Trent
Reznor and Atticus Ross.
It's starring the choice twink of
the 2020s, Timothee Chalamet, and
it's packed full of character actors.
It's bones and all.
I am your host, Jeremy Whitley,
and with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and Cenobites.
First, they're here to challenge
the sexy werewolf sexy vampire
binary, my co host, Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: Oh, I've hit that tired level
where I'm just actively disassociating.
So let fucking let it rip.
Jeremy: All right.
And the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
my co host, Emily Martin.
How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: beep Burrrrrrrrrr that's the siren.
It's in town.
That's right, it's the Trent watch.
The Trent has landed.
We have the full, uh, you gotta
get into your storm cellar.
Because Trent Reznor's here,
he's doing the soundtrack, he's
doing a song for the soundtrack,
also joy to, yeah, the full Rez.
But the Rez with the Riz is here and
he is also bringing in Joy Division.
Bless his heart.
And Atticus Ross.
I mean, he's there too.
Jeremy: the only government agency
that we acknowledge, the Joy Division.
Emily: Yes.
I don't know about that.
Tina: What about Interpol?
Jeremy: I mean, that's an
intergovernmental organization.
Ben: Well, no, you mean
the band, Interpol, right?
Tina: I do mean, I do the band
Interpol that sounds like Joy Division.
That's, yeah,
Emily: yes, Joy Division is, named
after the, sex worker group that was,
forced to work for Nazi soldiers.
I just want you all to know that.
Tina: great trivia.
Ben: I'm not gonna exactly
call that a fun fact.
Emily: okay, well, that
is a
Tina: tonight, we're
watching The Night Order.
Jeremy: And our guest tonight, the
writer of the new comic, Deepfrog,
and friend of the podcast, Tina Horn.
Tina, so great to have you back.
Tina: I'm so happy to be here.
I want you all to know that.
If I ever do get murdered, especially
murdered and eaten, I do hope that
when everyone who murders me goes
to my house, they will look through
my record collection, and they will
put on Kiss, and they will dance
around before they take a shower.
That's just all you can really hope for
from this life.
Ben: I mean, as far as morning rituals go
Jeremy: And that they go with
relatively deep cuts of Kiss, too.
Ben: Oh yeah, no, they don't
go for any of the low hanging
Jeremy: And like, we
want post makeup Kiss.
Emily: oh
Tina: Oh, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, they won.
Yeah, look it up.
Ben: I'm not It's not dying, it's
just playing with mortality, Kink.
Tina: Oh, wow.
Listen.
Don't get me started slash why am I
here if you don't want to get me started
on cannibalism, fetishism.
Ben: I We absolutely want to get you
started on Like, that is explicitly
our reason for being here, is to
get you started on that exact thing.
But before we get you started
on that exact thing, can you
tell us a little about Dprog?
Tina: Oh sure the cold open of Deeprog is,
Ben: Th This exact thing, still?
Tina: it is about a cannibal cult,
not the banned cannibal cult which
would make a great double bill
with a certain error of kiss, but,
Emily: cannibal corpse.
Tina: yeah, so, so
Ben: have gotten
conceived at that concert.
Tina: Gwar.
Did you guys see the Gwar Tiny Desk?
Anyway that really happened.
Highbrow, lowbrow so yeah, so I am so
happy to be back on one of my favorite
pods, and with some of my favorite
gorehorse, and speaking of gorehorse, I
have a new comic out written by me, co
created with Lisa Sterl, and drawn by
Lisa Sterl, who I love and, Colored by
Gab Contras with covers by Danny, and,
uh, it's called Deep Prog it's put out
by Dead Sky, which is an a relatively
new indie imprint co founded by Steve
Wands, who is the longtime letterer of
One of my other comic books, Safe Sex,
or SFSX Steve is a really solid guy and
asked me to pitch him a horror comic and
I had been bouncing around this idea for a
while of a dyke detective who specializes
in cults and Steve was like, let's do
it and so the first issue is coming out
in March 2024, and and then there was,
there's going to be four issues and then
the trade will be out in September 2024.
So if you like progressive horror, you
like to be progressively horrified,
Like, a lot of my work is about
sexuality, and this, has sex, but
isn't about sex, which was fun for me.
also, if you like bones and all,
it definitely has a lot of the,
like, disturbing, subcultural
grotesquerie of this movie.
So, I wanted to come on and and talk
about this movie and let listeners
know that I have this new comic out.
And while we're talking about it I
also have a new literary nonfiction
book out this year, June 2024, based
on my podcast, fire people into
that, which is about sex and kink
and gender and love from Pachette.
So, I've been like in a hole typing
away and like, this is a big, I'm
coming out year, lots of razzle dazzle.
so
Emily: started.
Tina: I will, I shall.
Ben: Hell yeah.
No, it is wonderful, and uh All these
books, fiction and non fiction, are kinky
and wonderful, that you shared with us
the first issue, and it was so much fun.
Jeremy: Absolutely.
It's a great book.
Emily: Thank you, for that, and also
thank you for bringing this movie.
To us, specifically me.
I have a question for you, Tina.
Tina: Oh, yeah, hit me.
Emily: And this is coming from
someone who, you know, I can't
smell you from here, but I feel
like we are connected on a level
of maybe when we were 14 years old.
and we were obsessed with a person
we may have wanted to eat them.
Is that, I mean, I don't
want to out anybody, but.
Tina: No, no, it's, amazing that you, I
mean, I think you can smell me from there.
Emily: Okay, okay,
Ben: When you started that
sentence, I really had no idea
where it was gonna end, I'll tell
Jeremy: People are listening to this
and they haven't watched the movie yet.
That's gonna be, it's like
foreshadowing of things to come.
It's a little, feels a
little strong otherwise.
Tina: Do you guys listen to movie podcasts
that recap movies you haven't seen?
Jeremy: My wife does.
Emily: sometimes.
Ben: Sometimes, yeah.
Sometimes I cover it a movie where
I'm like, well, I'm not gonna actually
see the one with the talking washing
machine who teams up to solve crimes.
Emily: that real?
Ben: I listen to the comedians make fun
of that, but I'm not actually gonna sit
down and spend 90 minutes watching that.
Emily: I'll
Tina: that exist?
I would
Ben: I don't need to rewatch
Jonathan Livingston Siegel.
Tina: yes, I will.
Okay, so cannibalism, fetishism, cannibal
aka the real life fetish practice
of what is explored allegorically,
or like in a horror genre way, in
Bones and All, is something that has
held my fascination for a long time.
And on my podcast, why
are people into that?
And I want to say 2019.
Like, definitely pre pandemic.
I had my friend Empress Wu, who is a
sort of notorious, notoriously deranged
and sweet faced dominatrix, professional
dominatrix, and, I had her on to talk
about her cannibal fetish, and it was
Really eye opening for me, stomach
opening for me But, um, gut wrenching,
gut spilling for me And it has been an
incredibly popular episode of a podcast,
Wired People Into Cannibalism, And I, and
my theory about that, besides the fact
that Empress Wu is really fucking hot.
and smart and has lots of experiences
and like raunchy stories to tell.
I just think that cannibalism is ripe
for metaphor and yeah, and so I also
did write a chapter about it for my
book, Why Are People Into That, out
in June 2024 from Hachette Press.
So if you want to know more about real
life ways that you can experience the
ecstasy experienced by the characters of
this movie, but without non consensually
mutilating or murdering people.
those are some resources
to check out
Ben: I mean, just guessing and talking
off the top of my fucking head, I have
to imagine that there's something to
it where, in the con especially in the
context of that Bones and All puts it,
there's something to The literalization
of how we metaphorically talk about lust.
Emily: Yes.
Tina: completely.
Emily: Yes.
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean to that end, uh,
let's go ahead and get into talking a
little bit about this film and who's in
it and who made it and what happens in
it is directed by Luca Guadagino who odds
are if people know They know from his
previous work with TimothĆĀ©e Chalamet.
Call me by your name Much
creepier to watch these days
Emily: Mm.
Ben: Oh, so both movies have cannibalism!
Cool, cool, cool, cool,
Jeremy: Weirdly, this
one is less creepy now.
it's based on the book
written by David Kaczkinek.
And Camille, Dan Camille DeAngelos
is working on the screenplay here.
We then also have TimothĆĀ©e
Chalamet in this book, Taylor or
TimothĆĀ©e Chalamet in this movie.
Taylor Russell is our lead,
our main character here.
We haven't covered, I don't think
any movies Taylor Russell is in.
We have not talked about, escape
Room or the many of sequels of
Escape Room that have happened since.
It also has just giving.
A blockbuster character performance,
Mark Rylance and as Emily mentioned,
it has the, uh, music of Trent Reznor
and Atticus Ross, there are a few
other folks in it, but, uh, those three
are the main recurring characters.
Ben: Tina, you said we've got a
Mark Ryland story to enjoy tonight.
Tina: Yeah.
Yeah.
I might as well hit you with
that before we get into the plot.
Let's see, what year was it?
It was definitely pre pandemic.
I want to say somewhere around like 2017.
I had the privilege of seeing Mark
Rylance in Twelfth Night on Broadway.
And it was in many ways, the concept
was like, let's go back to basics.
So it was like, Elizabethan, like,
Globe Theater style including a couple
of key elements one being that all of
the actors were, I don't know how they
all identified but all of the women
characters were played by men and as
it was in Elizabethan times, and also
there were seats on the stage, right?
so Mark Rylance, oh what the
fuck is the, I know I should have
looked this up before we started.
Does anybody know off the top of
their heads what's the name of
the protagonist of Twelfth Night?
Is it Olivia?
Ben: Petruchio?
Tina: No,
Ben: a thing.
That's just a random, that's just, random
syllables that came out of my mouth.
Tina: I've got my handy Google here.
Jeremy: Viola.
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: Viola, thank you.
Wait, is that right?
Emily: Would know
Tina: no, Olivia.
Olivia was the character
that Rylance was playing.
You're correct that Viola
is in Twelfth Night.
So Rylance is in this, like,
elaborate gowns, beautiful gowns,
like, you know, the big dresses
with hoops inside of them, right?
And doing this, like, special little
walk in slippers, I'm sure, like,
I'm sure that underneath that big
hoop skirt that he was just like,
Emily: Oh,
Tina: because he, like,
he looked like he was
gliding around the stage.
It was very amusing to watch.
Just stunning, incredible, acting some
of the best that you've ever seen.
And Mark Rylance, Sir Mark Rylance,
is a knight and a scholar and a
gentleman, obviously, and just
like a consummate professional.
So about halfway through the show,
one of the people who was like rich
or fortunate enough to have one of the
seats on the stage collapsed, right?
So someone might collapse in the audience.
at a Broadway show.
But this just happened to be
somebody who was, like, on the stage
in full view of everyone, right?
So of course the entire audience
gasps and Rylance stops I think
it's like doing a soliloquy as
the only, like, performer on stage.
Stops, freezes, in the middle of
his gesture, in the middle of his
soliloquy, and says, Is there a medical
professional in the house tonight?
Now, of course, this is New York City,
so of course, uh, there were many medical
professionals at this Broadway show that
go running up to the stage, and a bunch
of stagehands come out and whisper in
Ryland's ear, and he's just completely
frozen, will not be moved from the stage.
And is expecting everyone else
to handle it, and like, does not
want to like, shatter the illusion
of the role that he's playing.
So he remains frozen with his hands
in the air, on stage, until finally,
like, an ambulance arrives, the man is
taken off stage, I'm pretty sure this
person survived and ended up being fine.
And then the stagehand comes out and
whispers in Rylance's ear again, and in
character, with this complete grace, like,
finally unfreezes, changes positions,
and addresses the crowd and says, Ladies
and gentlemen, We will be back after a
15 minute intermission and then glides
off stage like again in character and
so then everyone's like Okay, and we're
like milling about and like trying
to figure out like is this person?
Okay, everything and then the lights
go down Rylance comes back on stage in
the exact spot exact position that he
had frozen in when the audience member
collapsed And then started from the
exact word that he had ended on and
like went right back into character into
the play and like everybody lost their
fucking shit and like applauded and just
like kept going and I was like, that is
the magic of live theatre as much as I
love the cinema, like, that's part of
what you get to experience when you see
someone like on that level being like,
this is how you handle an emergency.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: Jason Statham doesn't
know how to do that.
Emily: that's incredible.
Tina: I mean,
Ben: He might, he's Jason Statham, he
knows how to handle a lot of things.
Tina: Clearly.
Jeremy: I mean he could punch somebody out
in character if there was a troublemaker
in the theater, I'm sure he'd be
Emily: ha
Jeremy: into the performance.
Ben: I would see like Jason
Statham in like Coriolanus.
That's what I want to see.
Jeremy: Oh boy.
Hehehehehehe.
Ben: out of here.
It
Tina: my god.
Love it.
Jeremy: Jason Statham's Macbeth is
gonna be in my head for a minute
Tina: You're imagining decapitated
Jason Statham, aren't you?
Jeremy: I,
Tina: To spoil the
Scottish play, everybody.
Hee
Ben: Oi, witches, I'm talking
Tina: hee hee hee hee hee.
hee.
hee.
Jeremy: you fucking telling me that
I'm gonna be the king of Scotland.
Emily: When's the only belly done?
Jeremy: I say get the fuck out!
That's what I say.
is this a fucking dagger I see before me?
The
handle toward my hand?
Ben: I do gotta say, the emotional
journey I went on seeing the beekeeper
trailer going from I'm not fuckin
seeing this to I fuckin gotta see this.
quite the cathartic experience.
Emily: Speaking of a cathartic experience.
Yeah,
Ben: to actually be talking about.
Jeremy: Yeah, let's talk
about all these bones.
Emily: bones.
Dry,
wet,
bones.
Yeah,
Tina: okay, so now we've done the
and all, so let's get down to the
Jeremy: yes, this is the bones.
We opened on paintings of modern American
landscapes in a gym in 1980s Virginia.
Maren gets invited to a sleepover.
And she says she can't go
because her dad won't let her.
Her dad seems cool enough when we
actually meet her dad until she, until he
literally, uh, locks her into her room.
He, you know, lets her drive the
car and seems like a, an okay dad
until he locks her into her room.
Tina: Also, is Andre Holland, like,
who doesn't want him to be your dad?
I mean or you know, or daddy,
whatever, you know what I mean.
Jeremy: they sort of like, live in the
trailer park down the hill, the girl
that she's supposed to be meeting up
with for this, uh, sleepover, like,
gives her instructions of like, how
to follow the power lines up to the
nice part of town where she lives.
Maren sneaks out the window in the
middle of the night and goes to
the sleepover anywhere where she
promptly bites off this girl's finger.
Freshly fingernail polished
fingers, I can't imagine
Ben: you're really not
emphasizing how gay this scene is,
Jeremy: It's incredible, this scene
is incredibly gay and it looks like
she's about to like Sucker finger and
then she just really just takes a good
bite takes that whole bottom knuckle up
Tina: Yeah, who among
us did not want to chomp on fingers
at slumber parties in the 80s?
I know I did.
Emily: Yeah, I'm going to,
come back to that once we're
done with the recap, because I
Ben: Look, you've heard finger
lickin good, this is just
taking it to the next level.
Jeremy: you're not supposed
to lick other people's fingers
when it's finger looking good.
You lick your own fingers
Ben: You and I go to KFC
very differently, Jeremy.
Emily: KFC comes to you
is what you're saying.
Jeremy: She She then seems startled by the
fact that she's bit off this girl's finger
and runs home Her dad knows immediately
what's happened and tells her to pack
her things and they take off And, uh,
we catch up with the next Now Living in
Maryland where Maren wakes up to find
Dad's left a tape recording explaining
that he is R U N N O F T and, uh,
Ben: That was really when I figured out
it was the 80s, was the tape recorder.
Emily: I don't know their
hair and their clothes
Jeremy: yeah, and has, uh, left
her birth certificate as well.
She finds out from the tape that her, it
sounds like her mom had some of the same
issue, her, she, her dad says that her mom
found a way to take care of it, doesn't
really explain what that is, but she finds
on the, birth certificate both where she
was born and where her mother was born,
so she decides that she's going to, like,
follow that and, Try and go back there to
find out what's going on Where she comes
from, why she has this compulsive need
to eat people, That she has not known she
has had up to this point, but we learn
through the tape She has done several
times, including Murdering her babysitter
as a child by ripping out her throat,
Emily: but she was 3.
We got to make that very clear.
3 year
old.
Ben: Talk about enfanterib!
Jeremy: at the same age that Johnny
Cash's dad left his mom and him, she
was ripping out babysitter's throats.
Ben: Is that a flex on Johnny Cash?
Jeremy: No, his daddy left
home when he was three.
Didn't leave much to his ma
didn't leave much to my ma and
me.
Old guitar and an empty bottle of booze.
Ben: By the time your daddy was leaving
you, I was already ripping out throats.
Emily: How do we know
that he wasn't as well?
Ben: He is Johnny Cash.
Jeremy: he's the man in black.
Ben: Damn straight.
Jeremy: she, uh, buys, apparently
a map so that she can figure out
where she is going and then tries
to buy bus tickets to get there.
She can only really get as
far as Ohio, even though she's
going, I believe, to Minnesota.
the first stop where she has to change
over buses and she's stuck outside at
the bus stop A strange man creeps up
and is staring at her from a distance.
We learn that this is Sully.
He is played by Mark Rylance.
He, like her, is an eater and informs
her that he can In fact, he can tell
how long it's been since she's eaten.
Uh, He smelled her from several
blocks away, it would seem.
And he takes her back to a home where
he's staying in, where there is an old
woman who is in the process of dying.
Sully explains to us that he does
eat people, but he doesn't hurt other
eaters, and he doesn't kill people.
He just eats dying people,
or recently dead people.
They eat the woman after she dies
and then dry off and clean up.
He shows her his totally normal rope made
out of the human hair of the people that
he has eaten over the course of time.
It's, it's quite long.
This will be important later
so that he can remember them.
He wants her to, uh, stay with
him so that, uh, he can teach
her about being an eater.
But she has a bus to catch and
gets the fuck out of there.
She is, Possibly rightfully
creeped out by Sully.
I think, time will prove that she
was rightfully creeped out by Sully.
He does seem really
pretty desperate, though.
Tina: you guys, the moment that we're on
the bus with her and the bus is pulling
out of and if you've ever ridden,
Greyhound or Chinatown bus, even an
Amtrak, you know that feeling when you
get yourself to the train station, but
then the train or the bus is going past
the place that you're sort of backtracking
and you go past the place that you had to
leave maybe sometimes like in a hurry to
like catch the bus or catch the train and
then there's this kind of absurd thing
where you're doubling back so they're
going back and they kind of come around
the corner and Mark Rylance, Sully, is
standing on the corner watching the bus
It's just one of the creepiest things I've
ever seen in a movie, and I think everyone
here watches a lot of fucking creepy
movies, and everyone listening at home,
like, watches a lot of creepy movies.
It is one of the most creepy
Emily: yeah,
Tina: chilling things I have ever seen in
a movie because it's just and it's kind
of that monumental horror thing that we've
talked about before, right, where it's
just just a man standing on a sidewalk.
The way he's looking at her he is hurt.
because she's leaving, but
she never agreed to stay.
And if also, if you've ever had the
experience of someone, especially if
that person, like, has more social
power than you, like, you're a woman,
and like, a man is, like, hurt.
that you've done something
that he doesn't want you to do,
but that you didn't agree to.
It's so fucking terrifying
and like malevolent.
it made me fall in love.
I was like, what, Timmy
hadn't even shown up yet.
And I was like, I'm in love with
this movie, like for that moment,
if nothing else.
Ben: Yeah, like, he doesn't
have this, like, vengeful or
angry look, it's a hurt look.
But, knowing what we know about
guys, like, Sully is, you know,
Sully, our nice guy cannibal.
Jeremy: I, want to talk about Sully a bit
more when he, the next time he shows up.
Because I feel like next scene
that he's in is one of the the
two of them, and I, I wonder.
Tina: Yeah.
It's kind of the payoff of the
moment that we're talking about.
But like, if you've had any interaction.
Like that, not eating someone and then
skipping town, eating, eating someone
with someone and then skipping town, but
you know, like, that sense of, malevolent
entitlement, you know that that next scene
that Jeremy was just talking about is
coming, but, but it not, it didn't feel
formulaic, it felt like fully realized.
Ben: That, it's, he looks at her
with hurt, but it's a hurt that you
know is gonna have consequences.
Emily: that is,
the face of somebody who has
been waiting for a reason
Tina: Oh God, that's very
Ben: and, oh yeah, and
just got given a reason.
Emily: who's like on the edge and
they expect Their victim to be so
grateful that they have been nice and
then when, yeah, and then when their
victim preserves themselves, then
they feel betrayed because they went
through all this effort to be nice this
time, could have done these things.
Yeah.
Ben: Yeah.
there's no way out of it for her.
there's no way to say the right thing.
There's no letting him down gently.
There's no, way to preserve
his feelings and her safety.
The two are mutually exclusive.
Emily: yeah,
Tina: But also in, in that moment, because
she's a quite like, taciturn character,
and it's such a good performance, by
that active choice that she makes.
Like, she hasn't experienced
right How old is she?
She's like,
Emily: she's.
She says she's 18,
but,
Tina: She's been very sheltered.
She has not had a lot of life experience.
But she knows she needs to get on that
bus and get the fuck out of there.
And she's right.
Emily: Yeah, Yeah, so that scene is
definitely when I was like, Yeah,
that guy is absolutely bad news.
But, there's certain things that you
have to do to preserve yourself in order
to, you know, in a situation like that.
And that is one of those things where
you're like, I'm gonna go with this for
now, but I'm gonna keep my distance,
and I'm gonna keep this rock in my hand.
Anyway,
Tina: He does know how to
spatchcock a chicken, though.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: it's a very useful skill.
she gets back on the bus.
She makes it as far as Columbus this time,
which is the end of what she can pay for.
Before she, she smells another
eater herself while she's stealing
stuff from a convenience store.
And this guy sort of clocks her as well.
And then he intercedes in this sort of
thing where a loud dude is harassing,
uh, a woman just generally being
an asshole and sort of like they go
outside to go fight and like, she knows.
He's about to go kill and eat this guy,
but, like, definitely, like, not the
bad guy in this particular situation.
And she seems not to know
what to do with any of this.
She then meets him back outside as he's
leaving, obviously having murdered and
at least partially eaten this dude.
And we learn that this is Lee, our
beautiful, bisexual, twink, cannibal man.
Emily: Manic pixie cannibal
Jeremy: Yes, our manic pixie cannibal boy.
Emily: he has a tattoo on his arm
that says Adam and Eve and Steve.
Ben: did he?
I didn't notice that, that's great.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: a great touch.
Emily: It's a bit on the nose, but
Jeremy: I mean, there's several
things with Lee that might be a
little on the nose on occasion.
Ben: Subtlety is overrated.
Jeremy: Yeah So she she tries to connect
with him obviously feels better about him.
they decide to hang together for a while.
Lee wants to go to Kentucky to
help his sister learn to drive.
We get sort of an indication
that there's some troubled family
relationships, a missing dad.
He decides to take Maren back
there with him, like they, go
stay at his dead aunt's house.
Uh, this is after they go hang out at the
house of the guy that he's recently killed
and go through his record collection.
And, enjoy some, kiss, lick it up.
They go on to Kentucky, all the
great places in the world to visit.
This is where he's from.
They go and, uh, meet his sister.
He is teaching his sister
how to drive while she just
sort of chills at the house.
then he, uh, takes her on a
romantic date to the slaughterhouse.
Where they, uh, hang out with
cows and listen to music.
Lee, uh, then eventually
volunteers to take Maren to,
uh, find her mom in Minnesota.
This is a real, like, American Odyssey
sort of bit, where they identify all
the states we're in at various points.
It ultimately will not matter in a
lot of cases, but we go to Missouri
where they run into another two guys,
Jake and Brad, and if you thought
Sully was creepy, get ready for Brad.
Because these guys smelled them.
It turns out that Jake is an eater,
and Brad is a cannibal tourist.
Uh, He's also a cop on top of that.
He's just got all the red flags.
This guy, uh, is not compelled
to eat people, but is sort of
doing it for fun and curiosity.
This fucks Maren up, and frankly, I agree.
She is not into this dude.
Her and Lee sneak out in
the middle of all this.
After getting a name of the movie
delivered to them by Jake who talks about
the first time that he Ate somebody bones
and all apparently if you do this enough
or good enough at it at least according
to him You can eat people including
the bones We never told whether that's
actually true or he's just fucking around
this it could be either with this guy
Ben: that's some real crime to
the future, now you can eat bones.
Emily: I mean, there's a lot of
Crimes of the Future shit going
on here with, like, I want to eat
Ben: you
Emily: intestines.
Jeremy: Yeah, fucking David Cronenberg
has a heavily highlighted copy of
this book at home somewhere, is all I
can figure.
Like, there's just a
lot of like, notes that are
like, yes, written in the
margins.
Tina: You know, this movie plays with,
uh, cannibalism as allegories for a
lot of things and sometimes it feels
like it's sort of operatic in its
use of cannibalism as an allegory for
queerness where, like, even when people
are straight, they're still queer
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: they eat people, even
the idea of cannibalism as,
like, An innate, born this way,
desire that you have.
Ben: They're trying to be normal,
definitely read like, a by for
buy opposite gendered couple.
Try to be like, we can get,
like, a mortgage, or try to just
lean into the straight passing,
even though it's not who we are.
Tina: But, there are moments
sometimes where you're like,
Okay, and is gay so that helps.
you know, and Timothee Chalamet wears
glitter on the red carpet, so that helps.
Ben: Tepesh Elmeh is literally
a fucking, like, teenager's yaoi
fanart magically brought to life
Emily: Oh my god, Like, I used to
think that Dorito face senpai was,
like, impossible standards, right?
Oh Big Hands, Dorito Chips, Sampai,
and then I look at Timothee Chalamet,
like especially young Timothee
Chalamet, and I'm like, it's real.
It's real.
The only thing he's missing
is the shoulders that are
like way too fucking big.
Ben: He's got crying Lucifer face.
Emily: Yeah, you got
Crying Loser for face.
Jeremy: Bring a third of a pair of jeans.
Emily: have him sing, uh, uh, Once
in a Lifetime, and there you go.
Then you, you know,
Chalamet, Onegaishimasu.
Tina: Like not only is this movie
packed with some of the greatest living
character actors, but their roles
are, sorry, not sorry, juicy as hell.
And like this idea of someone who was
not born this way, but who chooses
to do it instantly resonates as like.
Every guy who got, like, one drunken
blowjob and is, like, as a member of
the queer community, or, like, every,
or, like, every person who has been to,
like, one bondage a go go night in San
Francisco and is, like, I'm kinky, I
understand kinky things, it's, like,
the sort of, like, sexual subculture
appropriation allegory of that character.
And it's basically just one scene
Jeremy: I gotta admit, I was
surprised that it did not come back.
Emily: What?
Oh, the,
Jeremy: of of Jake and Brad,
like, Michael Stuhlberg is great.
Tina: Love Stolberg.
Ben: I did not realize that Brad was
the director of Pineapple Express.
That's fucking with me a little.
Emily: Fucking really?
Jeremy: He's really working it up.
when you first meet them, you're
like, Stuhlberg is fucking
creepy, Brad is Whatever.
And then you get, like, the concept that
one Brad is a cop and- that, Brad was a
cop who witnessed the other guy eating
somebody and was like, nah, keep going.
I want to, I want to
see what this is about.
Everything about that guy is bothersome.
Emily: Yes, oh my god,
Jeremy: Maren and Lee also think so,
and they get the fuck out of there.
And so they decide to go to Iowa
uh, where there's a fun carnival.
Nothing bad ever happens at a carnival.
they're having a nice romantic
time on the ferris wheel when Maren
announces to leave that she is hungry.
She is still not at the level where she's
cool with killing people, but she is cool
enough with him killing somebody for her.
he picks up a guy at the carnival and
takes him out to the, field to have
a, Trist, and then, uh, while he is
uh, jacking him off, slits his throat!
And then they eat him in the cornfield.
Nothing about this is okay, and it's
even less okay when they go back to check
on his home, and they discover that he
has a wife and kid there waiting for
him that he did not tell him about, did
not have any pictures of in his wallet.
And, uh, they're real fucked up by this.
Lee is trying to pretend like he's not
fucked up by this because they need
to fucking go and get out of there
because people are already trying
to figure out what happened to this
dude and Maren is still even more
fucked up about the entire situation.
yeah,
Tina: So what I want to know
is, did he have to jerk him off?
Like, was jerking him off
a kindness or cruelty?
Emily: I think it was a kindness,
because he did wait for him to finish,
and as he was finishing, he killed him.
Right?
Ben: Yeah, Lee doesn't seem fucked up
ness to have that kind of, Hannibal
Lecter sense where it's like, at its
tenderest if you kill it right at the
height of, like, joy, he's probably
just enjoying himself up until then.
Tina: There is like an implied
bisexual, non monogamy exhibitionism
to it because he knows she's watching,
Emily: yes.
it's a complex situation, but I do think
that he is, I mean, this is something
he's done before, for sure, right?
this is a modus for him.
Tina: Oh yeah, he knows, how to cruise.
And he knows how to wrap his
hand around a cock, for sure.
Emily: and Bruce, apparently.
Um, but I think that this is a thing
that he has done, and I think that
this is something that, you know, he's
expecting her to be able to at least
watch, but also partake in, once
the guy's dead, they can eat him.
But I don't think he's got this Hannibal
Lecter diabolical sense, but I do think
that, like, if he's gonna eat somebody
that he's gonna get off with, he's
gonna at least let the guy get off.
Tina: I like that.
I object to the idea that his life
is worth more because he's on the
DL and has a wife and kids at home.
Like, If he had killed a closeted gay
bartender and they've been able to
get off scot free and like not like
leave this, you know, she's like he
had a family and it's like, okay,
people's lives are not worth more if
they have heteronormative families.
I, that's, I have a, I have a bone
Emily: yeah,
Tina: that.
Jeremy: I mean, I think there's
something to be said for the fact
that he like, by killing him, he
has also ruined other people's lives
rather than just one person's life.
I think
Emily: think
that's the biggest issue.
Tina: you could ruin a single closeted
gay guy's, you could kill a single
closeted gay guy who has fucking friends,
Emily: That's
true.
Ben: I mean, this look, this is the logic
of a and I I agree with both of you,
but also, like, this is the flawed logic
of an 18 year old girl who is killing
and eating people trying to convince
herself she's still a good person.
Emily: Yeah,
Tina: That's a very good point.
Emily: yeah.
And I don't think,
Tina: what it's ultimately about.
Emily: because the main reason that
Timothee Chalamet, so to speak, boned
down on this guy was because He was
being shitty to a kid and that seems to
be his sort of rules is that he he will
find somebody who is generally shitty
But also like in this case, he's like,
Ben: But in this case, he was hot.
Jeremy: mean,
I wonder if that is a question
of being shitty or if that is a
question of trying to find somebody.
Who is less likely to be missed quickly.
I do agree that like, there is not a good
Justification for anybody's life being
worth more or less than anybody else's.
I do think in the case of Maren, who
is somebody who's grown up with one
parent it is Sort of like striking to
her that she has now been the cause of
somebody else only having one parent
that is You know probably where a
lot of that reaction is coming from
Tina: Good call, good call.
I mean, this movie is
psychologically complex.
enough that even though in some ways
it's a very like lurid monster movie.
Have you guys read the book?
I haven't read the book.
Emily: I haven't read the book.
Tina: but it it
you can tell it's pushes
glasses up on notes.
Jeremy: Is
Tina: Yeah, eating eating
people is for cool kids.
Jeremy: Yeah, uh, so they run out of Iowa.
They head to Minnesota.
They get to the address on
the birth certificate and
Maren meets her grandmother.
Grandmother is dodgy, does not want
to be part of this, does not really
want to be associated with her does
not want to engage, but Maren sort
of pushes it she finds out from her
that, uh, her mother was adopted.
So the trace of being able to figure
out what's going on with her basically
ends at her mom that the grandmother
has sort of tried to cover up some
of what she was and that she says
that the mom is not with them anymore
and eventually reveals that what she
actually means is that the mom has
checked herself into the state hospital.
And so she's like, I've told you
everything I'm going to tell you.
Go, go talk to your mom if
you want to find out more.
Tina: and the grandmother It's played
by Jessica Harper, the star of the
original Suspiria, Suspiria, and
Luca Guadagnino directed
the remake of Suspiria.
Jeremy: yes, which we have
talked about on here in the past.
So she goes to visit her mom.
This is a truly traumatizing scene.
the nurse takes her to go see her mom.
She sees that her mom has
gnawed off her own hands.
And the nurse gives her a
note that her mom has written,
all about how she should have helped
her before and how far this has gone.
And unfortunately, you
know, Baron is here.
It means that her dad hasn't done
what her mom asked him to do.
And that there's only one thing
that she can do to help Maren now.
And that, uh, jump scare of an
ending is, uh, that mom tries to
bite her fucking throat out right
Emily: Mm hmm.
Jeremy: the hospital.
Ben: Well, Mom does such a
good job of timing the ending
of the letter to the attack.
Emily: I mean, yeah.
Ben: It's literally like, I
need to kill you, and then she's
like, right there, ready to go.
Emily: been practicing in her head.
Tina: yeah, Chloe Sevigny
understands a voiceover.
Ben: Yeah.
She read this a lot, like, she's had
a lot of years to practice, so she's
like, been timing in her head, she knows
how long it takes to read this letter.
Jeremy: Maren is helpfully reading a lot
of it out loud as she's going through.
Yeah, understandably Maren freaks
out and, uh, runs out of this place.
Lee has to let her out because the
door is locked from the outside.
Lee is trying to calm her down,
but Lee is really having trouble
reading the room at this point.
Because he's like, I also
had horrible family issues.
You just gotta chill.
And she's like, fuck that.
My mom just tried to kill me.
Unfortunately Maren also doesn't know
the extent of Lee's family issues yet.
Maren driving later and waits till
Lee falls asleep, pulls over the car,
and leaves him at the gas station.
She bucks off into the
woods and disappears.
She's fucked up and
ashamed about everything.
there's also a speech betwe, uh,
conversation between the two of them
about how he thinks she is freaked
out because she sees in him what is
wrong with her, and it's the first time
of her, like, really seeing herself.
And, uh, that is why he is, like,
projecting some of this onto
him and feeling like they need
to get away from each other.
Which I feel like is one of the, like,
three or four scenes in this movie that
somebody could do an entire TED Talk on.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The whole thing about being seen
and seeing each other and like, that
connection being what it is and the
complexity of that is pretty brilliant.
Jeremy: Yeah.
She runs away, to another gas
station where a van pulls off
the side of the road, greets her.
And guess who's here, who's followed her?
All the way from Frederick, Maryland.
It's her good buddy Sully.
Emily: so normal.
Jeremy: Sully.
this is the scene I wanted to talk
about because Sully has been following
her since Frederick, Maryland
which, you know, is halfway across
the United States at this point.
Yes, that is fucked up.
Yes, that is scary.
Every reaction Maren has to that
is absolutely correct and valid.
But also, this stuff that Sully says
in this scene is so, like, interesting
to me because there's a lot of, like,
she was the first person he's been,
like, vulnerable with, the first
person that he has felt connected
to, that, well, he says he wanted
to teach her, there's definitely a,
valid reading of this by Maren that
there is something romantic intentional
about this, or at least sexually
intentional about this, uh, which he
Ben: it's
Jeremy: more or less denies, but
it's but there is, like, really
something about I don't know, the,
the, like, Sully as an older guy.
Who has never had this connection, who
has never been able to share with somebody
who he is and has come out to her in a
way that he never has to anybody else and
feels that he has been rejected by her
and like that is like a powerful feeling
despite how often fucked up Sully is as
well is just like a thing that I feel
like We could talk about all day long.
Emily: Yeah.
it's a really important part of
relationship dynamics that I think
a lot of people, especially people
who practice polyamory and, and, you
know, a little bit more adventurous
things really do need to talk about.
And I think it's a really important.
and kind of neglected issue
is just literally talking
about intimacy as an exchange.
If you feel that there is something
owed, because you give somebody your
intimacy, then that's a problem that
a lot of people need to talk about.
And I think that this situation, I Is
really, great version of that, because
A, it's not necessarily about sex.
But it's about desire.
It's about
Tina: Belonging?
like Chosen Family, I mean, this is really
a movie about the element of queerness
that is about Chosen Family, like, whether
you're fucking or kissing them or not.
Emily: yeah.
And there's, I mean, as an ace
person, like, I can say that the
longing is very deeply there.
The connections that I've had with people.
The kind of, relationships that have
not been sexual, but have been very
complicated that is something that is,
is there no matter what which is why I
think it's interesting when it, when we
talk about something like, cannibalism or
whatever, you know, like this movie, this
is a metaphor that is very sensational,
but I think the sensation of it is not
about how we feel about it, but it's
about how the characters feel about it.
And every character has their own
way of defining what that means
to them and how they deal with it.
and the fact that it is cannibalism is
not about looking at them and seeing
how weird they are, but us seeing how
they feel about why they're different
whereas, you know, somebody who feels
different might not necessarily be
eating people, but they, there are
times when they sure do feel like.
Everybody thinks that they're a
cannibal and they've said something
or done something, they've kissed
their best friend or whatever,
and they feel like they've bitten
their finger off and they have to
leave town and never be seen again.
Anyway, that's the trailer
for my TED Talk stay tuned.
I don't know if it'll ever show up, I
have a lot of things to do, but anyway.
This movie's good!
Jeremy: Yeah, I think this is a really
interesting sort of companion scene to the
scene that Leigh is talking about, like,
her feeling scared about, you know, seeing
herself and somebody else for the first
time is like, you know, there's clearly
an element of menace to Sully, like, of
like, if you don't accept this intimacy,
then there will be consequences.
Ben: a nice guy!
He's like, I was like, Well,
that's the problem, because
they reject the nice cannibals.
They go for the bad boy,
Timothee Chalamet cannibals.
Jeremy: Yeah, there's
also just like such a
pathetic desperation to him
Ben: he is terror.
What makes him pathetic and weak?
Only heightens how dangerous
and terrifying he is.
Emily: Yeah,
and that's, especially for anybody who
has dealt with people who are Socially
above them, as you said, Tina, like
that's that is such a relatable thing
because they're nice now, but you feel
like, even though they're being nice.
And if there's any point where
you're like, I'm uncomfortable,
then they get really upset because
they're like, well, I'm being nice.
You know?
Yeah, it's a very, like, relatable
situation for anybody who's been in
that situation, which is a lot of
people, you know, at least 50%, if
not more, of the population of humans.
Tina: Yeah, and even this idea to
like echo what everyone's saying,
this idea of like, I've been so
alone, but then we had a connection.
It's like, dude, you didn't have
a connection, like what you were
saying about exchange, like I
made myself vulnerable to you.
Yeah, you chose someone who
was obviously vulnerable
Emily: yes,
Tina: and made yourself.
Okay, so you opened up to them.
Sure.
It's just it's so much
entitlement and so much.
Emily: And for older guys too.
Tina: yeah, and it there is a way that
you can have compassion for this older
man who is deeply lonely and has been
treated like a monster by a lot of people,
but like that doesn't give him an excuse
to do any of the things that he does.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: Yeah, I think like he is
ultimately messed up guy in a lot of
ways, but I think there's something
like Extremely relatable in him and
that, like, to extend to the metaphor,
he's, you know, an older generation of
guy who has been closeted and been kept
himself away from people, been alone
and wants this connection that he sees.
Her and Lee experiencing, right?
Like, he wants to feel like he can be
himself with somebody but he's so, I
don't know if it's maybe just a question
of, like, he's been alone so long and
he's so sort of damaged that, like, he's
lying to himself, I think, even about
who he is and what he is they make a
point of him talking in the third person.
He talks a lot about, Sully
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: who Sully is and what Sully's
like, and even more so it seems like
when he's sort of stretching the truth
about who he is because, He's trying to
pretend in this scene like he is okay,
like she's left Lee, so obviously she
needs somebody new to hang out with,
and he's cool, he's there, you know, he
understands, and the moment that, like,
There's the least bit of rejection from
her and she is like, very cautious and
diplomatic about it that she's just like,
Hey, I don't feel like I can trust you
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: You know, it sounds great, but
I do not feel like I can trust, that
you do what you are saying that you do.
And he immediately flips, he does
a 180, calls her the C word and
several other things before getting
in his van and storming off.
Yeah, and getting super aggressive.
Emily: and I think that there's a
bit of, the pattern there of him
separating, just completely denying his
own self, like he's basically separated
these things, his personas out, and
his vulnerable self versus his like
ultimate, like his ideal identity, right?
he has just formed this, like a scab
around this, third person that he
refers to himself, and that's how he
deals with all of the fucked up shit
and all the emo Well, and I think it's,
in this case, it's just the emotions,
dealing with the emotions of that.
Whereas the kids are dealing with
it in real time, but this is also,
like, they're young and they're,
still figuring that shit out.
But they are talking about it, and they're
talking about it, in a very real way.
You know, I think that that is something
very smartly referring to how people
have been and have not been able to
deal with things, and what happens
when you repress or divest or just
force yourself out of yourself.
If that makes any sense.
Tina: Yeah, I mean, this is a good
movie about how homophobia is the real
monstrosity, you know, like the sort
of allegorical, whether cannibalism is
a metaphor for queerness or kinkiness
or any kind of sort of like outsider
misfit status that like the social
oppression that has made Sully so lonely.
has like curdled into violence
Emily: Yeah.
And he's internalized it.
Tina: and not by, eat killing and
eating people violence, but also like,
calling a teenage girl a cunt for not
wanting to get in his van violence.
Emily: Yeah.
The much more common,
aggression that a lot of
Ben: I mean, that oh so common telltale
immediate flipping as soon as he's given
an unambiguous rejection, then it's just,
the whole facade just fucking slips.
Emily: yeah.
Tina: Yeah, I feel like incel is a term
that people are using more and more to
just describe someone like a socially
maladaptive white guy um, and that's
like fair enough, but like, as long
as incel is actually an ideology that
people are organizing and theorizing
around and radicalizing each other to
go on killing sprees around, I think,
think it's important that we be specific
about what involuntary celibate actually
means and I do actually think that Sully
is a good example of the incel idea.
Everything that we're talking about, the
like, I'm entitled to love and sex and
companionship and if you don't give it
to me I'm going to immediately turn on
you is, kind of incels are all about.
Emily: Yeah.
But the, essentially like the
monetizing or the commodifying
of vulnerability and intimacy.
that's.
Yeah,
Tina: like, nice guy thing
that we've been talking
about,
like, like, like, nice guys finish last.
I'm like, that actually
makes me the oppressed one.
Ben: Oof.
Oof.
Too real.
Emily: bleh, and talk about, tourism,
you know, in terms of, like, dealing
with, like, repression tourism,
like, Mr., what was his name, the
character, Brad, or whatever, the,
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: all that happens.
Jeremy: and so, uh, meanwhile,
we check in with Lee, who's woke
up at the gas station alone.
He decides that he's gonna head home,
seemingly resigned, that things not
being great, and it seems like he's
almost, at this point, just sort of
willing to, like, go You know, he's
Ben: I really wonder how long he
was napping at that gas station,
with nobody bothering him.
Emily: When you eat a lot
of meat, it makes you tired.
Ben: It does reflect one thing
that I think this movie does a
really good job of using location.
These gigantic empty spaces
are very out of the way, tiny
pockets of rural community.
Just the sheer emptiness of
middle America is very much almost
like a character in the movie.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, and it's, I think that is
part of where it's important that this
takes place in the late 80s, and that,
like, there's not that sort of mass
communication, the news is the most we
get, and we, we get sort of clues to
that from the bits of newscasts that
we hear, and that they're, you know,
contemporary stories to the late 80s.
Tina: Yeah, I mean, I mean,
I was born in the early 80s.
So, you know, I wasn't eating people
until the 90s, uh, when I came of age.
But this movie did make me, I
confess, nostalgic for a time that
you could just fucking disappear.
A
Jeremy: yeah, I definitely found myself
going, they've been in the same fucking
truck that they stole from the guy
that they killed for like months, like,
how are they not getting busted yet?
And I guess, guess.
Ben: busted by a, there are no, well
I was gonna say no police, the only
police we see is actively like, Hey,
I'm on your side, cannibal crew.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: Eat People.
Jeremy: Lee heads back to Kentucky.
He seems to sort of be resigned to at
some point getting caught or at least
just like he's, he's gonna spend some time
with his, his sister and even his mom who
they have like real tension between them.
And he's camping out by the river because
his mom has sort of kicked him out of.
his aunt's house.
We don't know, we don't even know how
much his mom knows about what he is.
Maren comes looking for Lee and finds
his sister Kayla, who we've met briefly,
previously who tells her about their
dad who was an alcoholic who hit her and
Lee on the same day that he disappeared.
Lee apparently sent Kayla
to go call the cops.
She did, and by the time the cops
arrived, they found Lee and both
his dad and his dad's car were gone.
Lee said that he had taken off
after she went to go call the cops.
He was covered in blood, which,
according to them, was his.
We get the sense that Maren understands
that this is not actually what
happened, that like, you know, Lee
is, responsible for his dad's death
and or disappearance in some way.
We we learned from Lee slightly later
on that Lee's dad was also an eater,
tried to take a bite out of him.
And, uh, Lee knocked him out taped
up everything but his nostrils and
drove his fuckin car into an abandoned
barn where he left him for three days
before he came back and ate him which
understandably will fuck you up.
Lee confesses all this to Maren as they're
out on the road together again and Maren
tells him that he didn't do anything
wrong that she would have done the same
thing and they decide that now that they,
They've come to terms with who they are,
they're gonna go be people together for
a while they move to Ann Arbor and, uh,
she works at a bookshop, and I don't
think we ever find out exactly what he
does, yeah and they invite Kayla up to
visit Kayla never makes it though SaMaren
comes home and they're, you get a sense
that she smells that something is off,
and Earliest feels that something is off.
She looks into the bedroom and
there is a familiar satchel on the
bed with some hair sticking out.
She moves to investigate
and Sully tackles her.
Sully says that, he just
can't leave her alone.
She knows too much about who Sully is
and he can't just Let let her be out
there knowing him It's fine that she
doesn't care about him, you know She
just he just can't let her be Lee arrives
in the middle of this conversation He
can already smell what's happening.
Apparently he's felt him down the
block He jumps Sully with a plastic
grocery bag, which given that Lee
has a knife I don't understand this
choice, but he does it, puts the bag
over his head there's some wrestling
finally, Meron stabs Sully repeatedly.
And they drag him to the bathtub
where Maren starts pulling at
his organs until he finally dies.
there's something more bothering her.
So she, she goes to go check out the
rope of hair and we discover that among
the hair is the, uh, telltale blonde
hair of, of Lee's sister, Kayla who
was solely killed and ate as well.
But the tragedy isn't over yet
as Lee stumbles in and collapses
bloodily against the wall.
He definitely got stabbed in the
lung by Sully during the fight
and he is in the process of dying.
Kayla wants to help him, take
him to the doctor, something.
his dying wish instead
is for Maren to eat him.
and use, you know, him to sustain herself.
We get several shots of the very bloody
house after this eating finishes and
then the house having been cleaned up.
And then she's off on the road again
and we, we get shots of her, I guess,
remembering being with Lee, fucking in
this field in the middle of Montana.
And, uh, Trent Reznor sings.
And that's
Emily: same.
Jeremy: that's the, end of the
Ben: Duh, movie.
Emily: um.
um.
Ben: with Trent Reznor singing.
Emily: Yes.
I mean, if I saw this, I'm still,
I'm already kind of obsessed with it.
But when I, if I saw this movie when I
Ben: I was gonna ask, is this the kind
of movie that almost like reverberated
backwards through time and you've
now loved since you were a teenager?
Emily: absolutely.
Absolutely.
14 year old, like I have all of this
going down to the strata, those,
those nesting dolls of personalities
that I have grown over the years.
went straight in, through and found 14
year old Emily and, and you know, gave
her something that was a little bit less
problematic than natural born killers, a
little bit less upsetting than Eraserhead.
Jeremy: for your heart.
It just
Emily: yeah, it was the Keyblade!
Trantrunster fuckin found me, he,
like, unlocked my heart, him and
Sephiroth that's just my fanfiction.
Anyway, the, the point being.
This movie's really good.
And, if you're a teenager and you watch
it, watch out, you'll be obsessed with it.
And I don't know, cause like,
also with Yellow Jackets,
there seems to be something
Ben: yellow jackets, this,
cannibal, cannibalism is gay.
Emily: you know, cannibalism can be gay.
I'm gonna
Ben: Can be, it is like, if you love,
it's like, you men, you love other
men so much, why you not eat him?
Emily: No,
I,
Tina: the French movie.
Emily: yeah, Raw.
Tina: Very
Emily: I think that was,
Tina: cannibalism.
One
Ben: fucking Savick's like, literally
eating out, like, it is, again, it
is the metaphorical made literal
Emily: The only,
Ben: and gayness.
Emily: the only reason that I say it can
be gay is because you know, I don't want
anyone, because there's still people out
there that think that, like, Satan is
flushing our kids down the toilet, and,
Ben: The last fucking straight can of
The last bit of straight cannibalism
was the goddamn Donner party.
Emily: Well, there was
a sex chainsaw massacre.
It's a little bit too,
Ben: Sex implying there are non
sexy chainsaw massacres, okay.
Emily: well, I'm saying it's
not, it's, it's not gay.
Ben: Right.
Emily: There's definitely people are
like, there's definitely shit going on
there, but that's a totally different.
It's going to go over here now.
But
Tina: thing, one thing that I liked
about the, I'm very interested in
the specifics of either like, how
does magic work in this universe
or what kind of monster is this?
And there were a few things about
their monstrosity that, that
are really interesting to me.
We've talked about some of them, but.
The fact that they're,
they're not like vampires.
I mean, there's something, there
is something vampiric and you could
make a lot of you could compare and
contrast, you know, the vampire is
outsider who passes as human, but like
sustains itself like a a parasite on
humanity, but and also obviously like,
horny as hell and seductive as hell,
but, but there is something really
specific about the man eating in this
construction of cannibalism, which is
that they can eat regular food and they
can actually survive or regular food.
They can eat human food.
They can go to a
diner and like chow down.
Ben: his breakfast of
bacon and Lucky Charms?
Emily: oh my
Tina: yeah, like, and they can, they
can, eat, they can eat, you know, they
can spatchcock a chicken or whatever it
is, like, they can sustain themselves
off of things that other humans eat.
But sooner or later, they
need to eat an entire human.
And, you know, because it's also not just
like, Oh, I'll have like a little finger.
It's like when they
eat a person that eats.
an entire fucking person like a, like a
predator, like eating an entire deer, like
a snake swallowing like an entire rodent.
And that's interesting to me.
It's not like, the what we do in the
shadows show where like someone eats a
slice of pizza and then fucking pukes.
Right.
Emily: right, right.
Tina: And like, that's interesting to me.
And it almost, that they almost starve
themselves from the ultimate thing that
sustains them both on like a nutrition
level but on somehow some more fulfilling
level that in some ways seems sexual
in some ways seems like a sense of
belonging maybe even spiritual just
like something that's in their nature
that they have to do the fact that they
kind of starve themselves from that
and then gorge themselves and the fact
that They are all, not every eater that
we need, but definitely like the main
characters are all like really skinny.
Sort of makes me feel like there's a
little bit of like supernatural disordered
eating going on with this movie.
Like, That, I guess, I feel like you
don't, you don't see that a lot in, like,
man eating monster predators, they're
usually just, like, gorging themselves
and they, like, need, they need to
eat human flesh or drink human blood
or whatever, eat human brains, like,
Ben: The eaters are gonna fuckin kill
it for the 90s heroin chic comin up.
Emily: Well, that's that's that's one
of the things that was interesting is
when Jake was talking to Lee, there
was a point where he was talking about.
You know, Lee was saying,
well, I'm in control of myself.
And Jake is like, I've read,
I've met junkies just like you.
Like, everybody says
they're in control of it.
They're in control.
And, you know, I think that
the, yeah, there's a, there's
the metaphor for drugs there.
And I think it's, it is, it does go deeper
than that because it is not something that
they choose and not that the drugs are
something that we always choose, right?
But it is a thing that
they have to live with.
Ben: I personally always choose drugs, but
Emily: yeah, but I'm talking about like
opioid addiction and stuff like that.
Like, sometimes that's,
Ben: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Emily: Yeah.
Like,
Tina: Right, and, and,
Ben: shithead.
Tina: but there, there is a sense
of, of, of inheritance, too, right?
And, like, So the idea
that you can pass on.
I, I, I, I don't love like, monstrosity
is like a metaphor for addiction as much.
Because addiction is more complicated and
people tend to, to put it in into boxes.
I suppose they do that
with sexuality as well, but
Ben: Yeah, I just, well, I have trouble
seeing this totally as a metaphor for
queerness and You know, outside the
box, sexual preferences is, it's the
same limit that I find with, you know,
X Men, as Newton says marginalized
metaphor is, you do run into the sci fi
wall in this of, yeah, but nobody has
to die for two people to have gay sex.
Emily: yeah, yeah.
But that, I mean, I think that
that's where the metaphor is
about how the characters feel
about their own desires, right?
Tina: and how society treats them
Emily: And how society treats them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: I think the, the place where
it feels strongest to me is sort
of the, the smelling thing, like
being able to smell each other.
And that is something that
she can't do at the beginning.
She doesn't understand it.
She doesn't know how to clock a
per, you know, another animal and
then he knows immediately, like,
you know, we, Sully knows You know,
can smell her from a mile away.
And you know, uses that to sort
of manipulate the situation.
And that, that is, you know, that is a
thing that she, she learns and she is able
to do more as the, you know, the story
goes on, but it, I feel like more, more
strongly than anything sort of directly
relates to the experiences of Gaydar and,
you know, being queer and being able to
sort of like, you know, Clock other people
and as opposed to, like, people just sort
of, just starting to understand who they
are, what they are, and, and sort of,
like, figuring out what all of that means.
Emily: yeah, there are definitely
layers, which is and, you know,
it's not very often that a movie can
achieve a metaphor with that many
layers and that kind of complexity.
Tina: Totally.
Ben: good film.
Emily: yeah,
Tina: My favorite line in the movie,
I think, is they're having a fight.
I think it's about, she's like,
wait, is what we're doing bad?
And, you know, Timmy's like
been on his own for a while.
And then they do like find this connection
of like, homo means same, right?
Like they're, they're the same.
And I love the idea of them being like
queer bisexuals with passing privilege
can like, go to Ann Arbor and like,
rent an apartment and work in the
bookstore, but my favorite line is when
he says, how dare you make this harder
Ben: Yeah, that was a good line.
Tina: because, you know, he's like, I've
been suffering the most that I could
possibly suffer, and then you see in
Sully, it's like, no, there's There's
more suffering and it's actually, like,
it's harder to question the ethics
of who you are and what you're doing,
but if you just, like, let your, like,
loneliness and self hatred and how
other people perceive you calcify,
then, like, you end up, like, so,
Ben: I think this movie does a good
job showing the almost intoxicating
euphoria of finding someone like you
and giving each other permission to be
the selves that I'd, you know, after
a lifetime of hearing just the low
key societal hum of no homo, finding
someone that says like, yeah, homo.
Emily: yeah, yeah,
Tina: Very, very romantic, and I
don't usually like romance in movies
Ben: I mean, it's a, the, the last Oh
yeah, I mean, the last image of the movie,
them out in the wilderness together, it's
a very beautiful final image to go out on.
Emily: yeah.
And a lot of the most romantic moments
in the film are in dialogue, you know,
which is another thing that needs
to be part of romance and is, you
know, where I think that romance and
film really needs to build is that
it needs to be communication based.
And I think that, you know, being queer,
you have to be able to communicate,
because, yeah, like, you have to, like,
there's, there's, and, you know, no
matter who you are, and even, like, you
know, a lot, there's a lot of straight
romance, which is completely built
on the, the conceit that people are
psychic about what each other want.
And that's not, that's not the case.
It is made up.
It is fake.
You know,
Tina: Completely.
Emily: anyway it's just my, but I,
I think that that's a good step in
that direction and what this movie
talks about in terms of that romance
and this movie's feminist that's, I'm
gonna say it, I think it is, it's,
Ben: So, no arguments here, on that front.
Tina: I hope she goes forth into the rest
of her life with her first boyfriend,
like, incorporated into her, like,
to become one Spice Girls style and
and then, like, finds lots of girls
to, like, nibble on their fingers.
Ben: That should have been how the
Spice Girls as a band ended, with the
fight to the death when one of them
absorbs the beings of the other four.
Emily: I was imagining something
like a like a Dark Crystal
situation where they become an ideal
being, like all of them are, you
know,
Tina: hmm.
Emily: it's kind of like
Voltron.
Ben: who devoured the sun.
Emily: Yeah, but then, did you know in the
original GoLion, the reason that GoLion
is four, is five lions, and the reason
that Voltron, the robot, is five lions, is
because God was like, you're too warlike.
I'm going to split you apart.
Tina: Whoa,
Jeremy: No.
Tina: something new every day.
Emily: Um,
Ben: go, Lion Mythos.
Emily: yeah.
Ben: it apparently.
Emily: Yeah.
Well, it's good.
Go Lions.
Go Lion is where Voltron came from.
Voltron is Go Lion and another show
blended together by, by people who
didn't understand Japanese and it just
made up what the characters were saying.
Ben: Yeah, it was fine.
Emily: Yeah, no, it worked.
We got Voltron Legendary
Defender based on that chimera.
But anyway, this movie is feminist.
Tina: Wait, one thing that we sort of
skipped over is just another manifestation
of everything that we've talked about
more in depth with Sully, which is what
happens to Chloe Sevigny, like, like,
that's another metaphor for what you do if
you internalize the messages that society
like says that you're a monster is that
you like end up like institutionalized
by the state gnawing off your own hands.
Emily: yeah, yeah, and you know, just
resigning to the, well, I don't think
it's, I don't want to say resigning,
but, like, you know, whether that is
a choice of denial or an inflicted
denial from drugs, you know, because,
like, you know, someone could someone
could be institutionalized and, you
know, it still happens that people
are institutionalized for being queer.
Tina: For sure.
Emily: Yeah, and to them, that might
be the thing that they're, that they
feel like they need to do because they
trust authority to, to fix it and then
they are, you know, drugs are inflicted
on them, or, you know, treatments are
inflicted on them you know, and, and
that people can be taken advantage
of because they don't understand
what they're going through very well.
Yeah, so, you
know, and I.
Tina: really scary.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, and the mom, like,
that was really, I mean, I thought,
I thought that that whole story
was well represented with the mom.
and, you
know, because if
Tina: kind of like the fallacy of the idea
that like, again going back to the theme
of chosen family, that she's like, okay,
well, if I find my biological mother.
Then we will just know when to understand
each other and be instant besties and
then I'll understand myself better.
And I feel like this is kind of
a representation of the fallacy
that like, that's just not
always going to be the case.
That like, your blood is not always going
to understand you as much as cannibals you
Emily: made along the way,
Ben: Definite,
Tina: in love with
along the
Ben: yeah, definite of, you know,
found family or advocating for,
uh, healthy romantic partnership
over flawed familial relationships.
Emily: yeah,
Tina: And, just because you meet someone
and they're also queer, doesn't mean you
have to be best friends, like, that's
the other, like, lesson of Sully, is that
Ben: Yeah, sometimes there's solely,
I mean, I do feel like it is generally
good lesson that if someone's
referring themselves as a third
person, fucking steer clear of them.
Jeremy: Unless it's The
Tina: or, I'm just like, unless, uh,
if, like, if somebody's like, well,
like, like, we're both queer, so
we're family, and also now you have
to, like, do what I expect you to do,
it's like, I, I don't know, that's
a, that's a little pet peeve of mine,
I'm not, I Available to every
gay person in the world to
give them moral support, like,
Jeremy: sort of, let me define
your queerness by my queerness is
not
Tina: exactly,
Ben: I consider it like an RPG party.
I can support like six queer
people at any given time, but
Emily: Yeah, it depends.
There's got to be, like,
you know, boundaries and
Jeremy: three of
Tina: mean, I can eat six
Ben: queer
I can, yeah, I can have queer, I can
have as many queer people that I support
as like, it's like a Pokemon team.
I gotta make,
I gotta make sure, I gotta make
sure that my queer people that are,
have a good balance of strengths and
weaknesses that cover each other.
Emily: Yeah, and then
the rest of them Yeah,
Jeremy: you know.
Ben: Yeah.
Emily: some of them got to stay in the
box because you got to catch them all,
but some of them, you know, you just
keep in the box and, and you message them
every so often and send them gift cards
and say, and say, like, miss you XOXO.
Ben: Oh yeah, sometimes you're like,
ooh, hot pants and a mustache, like,
man, I haven't seen you since Gen 2.
Emily: I don't know if you're talking
about a Pokemon or a Pokemon character
because I think those, you know,
Ben: Don't think about the
metaphor too hard, I know I didn't.
Jeremy: So, I, I was gonna say what I
appreciate about this, because we usually
talk about race and social justice at
this point, and I think what I appreciate
about this movie, as opposed to, say,
like, early X Men, is that this is a
movie where it can be a metaphor about
a thing and also still include the,
the underrepresented communities for
which this thing might be a metaphor.
There are still
Ben: I thought you, I thought you were
gonna say not directed by a criminal.
Jeremy: I'm talking about the
early comic books of X Men,
not the early film of X Men.
Yeah, that there are still, like, that
the main character is a woman of color.
That, uh, we do have queer
characters in the story still.
Even though Maren's queerness
is sort of Up in the air.
I mean, that first scene, as you
were saying, feels very queer but
we don't get any sort of, like, real
confirmation from her that she has
romantic feelings beyond taste for girls.
But I think, like, you know, very
obviously, Lee is bi and we have some
indication that Maren may be as well.
And I think, like, including Including
those groups of people in the
metaphor for the thing is important.
Tina: I totally agree with that.
I feel like even when you get something
like true blood a very unsubtle.
metaphor for like vampires like coming out
of the coffin and like God hates fangs and
all of that like but then things get like
a bit muddied about like like sometimes
it feels like It's an allegory for race in
the South and like sometimes it feels like
it's an allegory for queerness, but then
like, like race and queerness like also
exist in that world alongside vampires,
like, I feel like this does a much better
job of managing like the coexistence of
the like supernatural allegory and like,
the real life circumstances of how people
would be treated without being too on
the nose, like, like Maren is not, it's
not like, she doesn't feel tokenized and
it doesn't feel like they like hammer
it over the head even though, like, she,
like, as a biracial black woman, she
would definitely be, like, treated a
particular, a particular way, especially
in, like, 80s America, like, on the road,
Emily: Yeah, there's a, there is a
genuineness of her, of the way her
character is portrayed that does not
feel like there are checkboxes being
listed of things that we need to
know about her, you know what I mean?
And then her You know, her, her family
situation that could be about class.
It could be about race.
It could be about the fact that her dad
is on the run from trying to make sure
that, you know, they don't get arrested
for his daughter eating people, you know,
Tina: Yeah, also probably
more difficult for her.
it doesn't seem like he's an eater.
It seems like the white mom was an eater,
but Like, if he is the one who is, like,
solely responsible for, like, keeping
his daughter safe like, it would probably
be harder for a black man in America in
the 80s to like, if he is continuously,
like, in hiding and on the run, like,
I'm not saying abandoning her was the
right thing to do, but it gives, it gives
context to, Like what he must have been
going through for the past 20 years or so
Emily: absolutely.
And the, there's also a bit where
her grandmother talks about how
they didn't agree with the marriage
and all this kind of stuff.
And there was, there was some
sort of, there was a rift there.
You know, whether that
could be about race or not,
you know, it's, it's,
Jeremy: Oh my god, that
feels so real to me.
Uh, not to harp too much on, like,
extended family stuff, but the, the fact
that, like, the grandmother knows that
she has a daughter who is a cannibal
and still is like, my daughter is too
good to marry a black man, is like,
fucking accurate and wild as hell.
Uh, just as,
Ben: Yeah, just,
Jeremy: in North Carolina
Ben: Racism is one hell,
Racism one hell of a drug.
Emily: yeah, well, and this woman would
rather admit that she's racist than
that her daughter is a cannibal, you
know, like, easily and, you know, that's
just a bit of realness, like, you know,
it's a, it's an accurate, multifaceted
depiction of these people's flaws.
yeah, and then there was something I
wanted to mention about the cannibalism.
There is a neurological disorder called
Lesch Nyhan syndrome, which at, you
know, at first glance, maybe would have
something to do with this because it
does have, there have been observed
Behaviors and folks who've had that they
will if they are close to somebody, or
if it's because they part of the symptoms
is that you, you chew on yourself, you
bite your lips, you bite your fingers.
And sometimes
Tina: right, right, right
Emily: there's a lot of, and it's not,
it's not, this is crowbar separation.
With any sort of fetishism, this
is a this because it comes with
a whole bunch of other symptoms.
It has a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis
that has to do with the hormone imbalance.
Tina: hmm.
Emily: But there have been there have been
studies where people have observed those
with Nilesh Naihan to, that they will try
to eat somebody that they feel close with
and it is sort of like a
like the man, like, the most
ultimate manifestation of trust
with some of these folks.
And, you know, I thought about that
when I was watching the movie and I,
because I was trying to sort of look
at all of the different ways these,
you know, psychology and medical
mental illness, disability, things like
things like that could be portrayed
here and, you know, does that have an
A relationship with the Lesch Nyhan
disease, because that's what, initially
when she bit the finger, I thought that's
what the movie was going to be about.
Tina: Oh interesting
Emily: Yeah, and then it was not, and I'm
glad, and it is really, it is really not.
It is not, it's a cannibal thing, it's
a magic thing, it's not Lesch Nyhan,
but I do recommend looking it up, just
so you know about, just so you know
about it, because, you know, we talk
a lot about gay cannibals and stuff
like that and the, the metaphor of,
of chewing on other people and eating,
eating other people and absorbing them
when there's, you know, there are actual
neurological disorders out there that
people will eat each other when they
are, I don't like saying people will eat
each other, but people will, will see the
consumption of flesh as a as an intimacy.
Like literally
Tina: Well for the record, I do know
people who are like highly trained in
like medical fetish play who do enjoy
consensually eating each other and it's
been described to me as Very intimate and
romantic and there's a story I've heard
from many people about these people sort
of known for their like extreme kinks
who went to a play party and one of them
was a surgeon and, you know, consensually
used a scalpel to like remove part of
the other person's flesh and then, and
then they got out of the camping stove
and started cooking it, and they were
kicked out of the party, not because they
were practicing erotic cannibalism, but
because not everyone at the party had
consented to smelling cooking human flesh.
Emily: Oh yeah, I mean the open
flame too, but like, yeah, if it's
on a stove, yeah, like that, that's
a really, that's a sticky wicket.
Tina: I know a lot of, I know a lot of
cannibal fetishists who don't, like, I
tell that story to like illustrate the
fact that like, Imposing it on someone
because you're enjoying or maybe even
getting off on shocking people is like
People could, you could do that with the
most vanilla thing in the world, right,
like, so, like, getting off on, like,
a fantasy of eating someone, or even,
like, actually going through with it,
and, like, eating someone in a way that
is not causing like, undue mutilation,
you know, like, like, the damage is
permanent in, like, a body modification
way, in the same way that, like, a tattoo
is permanent, like, like, or other forms
of, like, consensual body modification,
but, like, like the thing that's fucked
up about it is not like the transgression
of the taboo of, of eating people.
It's the like, transgression of
the taboo of like, getting off on
like other people's shock, which
just like makes you an asshole.
Going all the way back to that other
Loop of Guadagnino movie starring,
co starring Armie Hammer, who had
that whole big cannibalism scandal.
Sort of same, same deal, you know.
I write about this in my book.
like the thing that made him an asshole,
is like, bringing this up non consensually
and like, not being interested in doing it
with people who are like, had like, mutual
interest, and like, that's the thing that
is romantic and beautiful, beautiful about
Bones and All, is that, which, came out,
I believe, I believe the movie came out
after the Armie Hammer scandal, to the
point that they were asked about it, but
like, it had, the book was written, and
it had been in production, before that, so
it was like, weird timing where they kind
of had to answer for it, but they were
like, That actually has nothing to do with
this movie and the movie, but the movie
is kind of like a beautiful illustration
of like mutual interest and desire.
Emily: yeah, yeah, and the difference
between, consensual and non consensual
and what that, what that means with,
especially with, like, Sully and yeah,
Tina: Or the fucking cop,
Emily: yeah, and the
cannibal terrorist cop.
Tina: A cop who did not direct Green Room.
Jeremy: rad.
Emily: I, it's funny, I
remember the Army Hammer scandal
because we were,
God,
Emily isn't feeling very in touch with
reality right now but, Army Hammer
Scandal happened right when we were
reviewing Hannibal, which was funny.
Anyway.
Jeremy: For certain, for
certain values of funny.
so, guys, do we recommend this movie to
people?
Emily: Fuck yes.
Fuck yes.
Tina: Two, Two, backpacks.
Satchels full of human hair up
Jeremy: Yeah.
I would, I
would say, with, with the warning,
which, I mean, if you listen to
this, there's a good chance that
you're fine with lots of gore.
There is lots of gore in this movie.
Literal gore and viscera.
Like,
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: and it sometimes seems kind of
dissonant right like because it doesn't
it doesn't have the tone of a conventional
horror movie, so sometimes it feels
like you're kind of going on for a while
being like, oh, this is like a American
road trip period piece like Rome.
Oh God,
Jeremy: I almost wish I knew nothing
about this movie going in because that
scene at the sleepover is directed with
such a plumb, it's such a jump scare
of her just like, like, looking at this
nail polish on this girl's finger and
slowly moving it toward it and then it
being like, oh, is this a sex thing?
Oh, no, this is a a
Tina: yeah, and even the act that
actress whose finger whose finger gets
the actress whose finger gets bit off.
It's like they're they're also under a
glass coffee table, which is very 80s.
And,
and, and she, she gives a great
performance because you see the
look on her face goes from, ew, but
like, maybe I'm kind of into it.
Like, ooh, this is like, like
gross, but also scandalous.
And then like, and then the pain
sets in and then like the fact that
this person is fucked up sets in.
It's really, it's, it's, it's marvelous.
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: And I
will say, The 80s ness of the
sets in this the amount of wood
paneling that's in this movie is
wild.
Emily: Well
Jeremy: Um, shocking.
Shocking amounts of wood paneling.
Yeah, I, yeah, I'd say I definitely
recommend it with, I mean, that one sort
of caveat of like, there's, there's gore
bad things happen as, as too often in
many of the movies we talk about but
is there a move, something y'all would
like to recommend coming out of this,
whether it's related to this or not?
Tina, is there something you
want to recommend to people?
Tina: Oh, God.
I forgot to think about this.
All of my stuff that I said already
about cannibalism, you know, I mean, I
think we've talked about a lot of stuff
that does a great job with cannibalism.
I mean, I love yellow jackets.
I would love to talk
about that more in depth.
I obviously love Hannibal.
Yeah.
Raw pairs well
Jeremy: Raw is one we
haven't talked about yet, but
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: I think we should at some point.
Tina: What's another, I mean, you
know, there's definitely been some
conversation of late about like, why
are we so preoccupied with cannibalism?
I mean, even, even zombie stories, even
Last of Us in a way is kind of about
like eating each, you know, vampire
movies are about eating each other.
Yeah, I'll try to think.
If you ever get a chance to see Mark
Rylance do Shakespeare on Broadway.
If you could arrange to have
somebody have a heart attack in
the middle of it, I recommend that.
Jeremy: You should not recommend
that people arrange for other
people to have a heart attack.
That's not
Emily: Arranged for a very good actor
to, I don't know, actually that's gonna
Yeah, VA
Tina: That's, that's
Emily: do crimes,
um,
Tina: me think if there's
anything else related to this that
I, that I recommend.
But yeah, Guadagnino movies.
Love that guy.
Emily: Suspiria.
Yeah.
Tina: I love the Shakespeare every night.
Emily: Swinton in three different roles.
Tina: Oh my god,
Jeremy: for absolutely
no reason, but Yeah.
Uh,
Emily, what have you got to recommend?
Emily: Well, here's a couple things.
There's another American
Odyssey movie that's interesting
that is about queerness.
Um, I haven't seen it in a million years,
so I can't say how good it is about,
you know, in the queerness category.
But it does have River Phoenix
and Keanu Reeves making out.
that would be My own private Idaho.
Tina: Idaho.
Yes.
yes.
Ben: Yeah,
Emily: You
Tina: Yeah, no gay subtext in that movie.
That movie's just gay as hell.
Emily: yeah, yeah.
I mean, I'm, I'm just saying, like,
I don't know if it is terribly
comfortable, but it is definitely gay.
And then, you know, a lot of this movie
does, like, the, the comedy version
of this movie is the Doom Generation
which is a lot more problematic.
And but still kind of an interesting take
from the 90s, in the 90s, and grotesque
in its way, but nowhere near as sensitive.
And off of the, uh, of like, coming
in from the outfield, I have, have
I recommended Scavenger's Reign yet?
Jeremy: Yes.
Emily: Okay.
Well, I recommend it again, because
it's really fucking good, and,
and, and there should be more
seasons and people should watch it.
It is, like, so good.
incredibly good.
It's, it's On
it's On Max right now, and it's animated,
and it's good, and it's everything I
want, and maybe you too will also want it.
Tina: Oh, you know what else is quite good
lately about the sort of cannibalism as
allegory for sex and gender was Fresh.
see Fresh?
Emily: I haven't
seen
Jeremy: haven't seen it yet,
but I, it's on the list.
Tina: I liked it.
Ben: My,
yes, my recommendation is, uh, the
1996 Wachowski sisters film, Bound,
starring Gina Gershon and Jennifer Tilly.
Emily: Nice!
Ben: just gay awakenings
and also a little death.
Emily: haven't seen that one,
Tina: god, that movie has
probably the greatest cinematic sex
scene of All time, actual, butch,
bottoming, hand sex, choreographed
by dyke pornographer Susie Bright,
who also appears in the movie
yeah, that, I mean, yeah, I, I
second that, I cannot recommend.
Found enough.
Emily: I'm, I'll watch it,
I'll watch it right now.
Actually, I can't, but by the next
time we talk, I'll have watched it.
I'll promise that.
Jeremy: Yeah.
So I I've had, it's been an
interesting week for, for media for me.
Cause I watched this early, just
before this for the first time I
watched a little film called heathers
Emily: Hmm.
Jeremy: seen before.
Emily: What?
Jeremy: I, I had never
seen Heathers before.
I watched it, I, I, it's too late in my
life to have watched it, if if you're
gonna watch it, I think you should
watch it much, much younger than I did
at 39 because watching it now, I'm just
like, like, I see, I see what it is.
I see them trying.
They're not quite there
yet, but like, I see it.
Some relevant stuff to today that feels
a bit weird looking at it now because
of the number of some of the things
we've talked about in this episode that
are sort of, like, almost treated as
science fiction in that movie of, like
You know, men committing mass murders
because they don't get what they want.
Yeah, I, I don't know.
I don't know if I, if I would
recommend Heather's, I feel like
everybody should see it just
because it's a cultural touchstone.
But the, the third semi traumatic thing
that I watched this week was, uh, Alicia
and I are still catching up on the bear.
The bear is a Good show overall.
This week we watched an episode from
the second season called Fishes.
Ben: yes.
Jeremy: which is
a flashback episode that is somehow
manages to be the most traumatic episode
of an already incredibly stressful
show, you get to see, basically where
this family broke down, but you get
to see a lot of the characters who
are more talked about or, you know,
flashbacked in some of the stuff who,
like, you, you don't normally get to
see, and there are some just Astounding
performances, um, by some of the, you
know, some of the characters who are
some of the actors and actresses who are
cast as characters who are already dead
by the time the show, the bear starts.
But, you know, that show, just as we're
talking about this, just early this
week, won several awards at the Emmys
and I, I think deservedly so, but this
episode in particular, has Jamie Lee
Curtis is their, their mom who does not
show up in the rest of the show at all.
It's already presumably dead by
the time the show has started.
But it also has just, like it has
Bob Odenkirk is sort of their,
their shitty uncle character.
John Mulaney is sort
of this, you know, guy
Ben: Okay,
Jeremy: dating somebody
else in the family.
Ben: the craziness of John Mul Yeah,
the craziness of John Mulaney and
Sarah Paulson as a romantic couple.
Fuckin bonkers.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's wild.
It has like Jillian Jacobs
is in that episode as well.
Of course.
But like, I think the standouts to me
are both Jamie Lee Curtis and is the,
the older brother who is sort of the,
like, impetus for a lot of the stuff that
happens in the first season of The Bear,
but you never meet because he's already
committed suicide before that season.
John Barenthal gives just an outstanding
Performance in this that, like, just
talking about it, just thinking about
it, makes me tear up because he is such
a, like, real character, like, you know,
as, as a guy that I got to know playing,
being in, like, The Walking Dead and
The Punisher, like, Jon Berenthal gives
this, like performance as this guy who
is like drowning, who already has mental
illness issues, who is like everybody
is just doing their best to not set
him off, but he has just sort of this
feeling of this you know, this sort of,
like, loose canon in it, that, like,
you know, if you do or say the wrong
thing around him, everybody's gonna
pay, like, it's, you know, he's gonna
go off and it's, it's gonna be bad.
And the, him, him and Bob Odenkirk
have this sort of, like, back and forth
throughout the episode that is just so,
like, Watching it, I was like, oh my
god, this is the most, like, there's
no episode of 24 that is this tense,
like, you know, there's no, like,
crime drama that makes me, like, clinch
up the way that this episode does,
But yeah, it's just, like, It's an hour
of television that is just, like, the
most intense family drama I've ever seen.
Like, it's, it's incredible.
So, yeah, if you haven't watched
the second season of The Bear, if
you haven't made it to Fish's, it is
basically a one off that they sort
of drop in the middle of the season.
And it's, it's the most incredible short
film that I feel like I've ever seen.
But yeah, it's definitely
highly recommend that one.
Not that The Bear.
really needs any more hype at this
point, but it is a very good show.
Tina: Hell yeah.
Emily: Good to know.
Good to know.
I've only heard about it abstractly, so.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's, it is a very high
tension show about a restaurant, about,
that I think more perfectly encapsulates
the feeling of drowning than, like,
any, any show I've ever watched, or
just, like, there being a thing on
top of a thing on top of a thing, and
you're just doing your best to get by,
and, like, Watching it, I'll just find
myself on the edge of the couch, just
like, chewing on my, my fingernails.
It's just that amount of tension, and
this episode is just so incredible.
It's really great.
Yeah, that's it for us.
Tina, remind people where they can find
you online, and, and again about Dprog,
which I think this is gonna be coming
out right at the beginning of March,
so it should be out very soon for them.
Tina: Oh, perfect.
Yeah well, my website is tinahorn.
net, so that's t i n a h o r n, net.
And then I'm on Twitter.
It's called Twitter and Instagram
at T I N A H O R N S A S S.
And you can, yeah, if you go to my
website, you can subscribe to my
newsletter where I mostly will just
send out emails when I have an update
on things and events and workshops and
tour stuff and appearances and whatnot.
Appearances like being on awesome horror
podcasts, like Progressively Horrified,
and yeah, you know, if you're comics
fans, you know the drill, like, it helps
so much to talk to your local comic book
store and say this weird, gory, queer
book about queer people by queer people
with a butch protagonist, um, like,
I, I, I need to get my hands on it.
Let them know and that really helps
us continue to be able to make
it and Yeah, don't be a stranger
let me know on the internet
Ben: And you definitely do
need to get your hands on
Emily: Yeah, get your hands on it.
Get them all over it.
Ben: Get more
than your ha Get more than just
your hands on it, for that matter.
Emily: Yeah, I
mean, if that's your thing.
Jeremy: Just
really go at it.
Tina: me y'all
Emily: thank you so much.
No, I've had a blast.
Thank you so much for
having us watch this movie.
I am so happy, you know, 14 year
old Emily shouts from the past.
Thank you.
Ben: Yes, this
Emily: Um,
Jeremy: Yeah, this is one
that's been on my list.
I'm glad I had an excuse to
make myself watch it, because
Tina: Well, I feel like it was
really underrated so I'm glad that
Emily: well, apparently
because.
I, I, you know, being the Trent Reznor
fan that I am, I had never, I hadn't
heard about it and he's like singing
the song, he has a song that he does,
like, he doesn't usually do the song
for the movie, you know, he'll do the
score and everything, usually doesn't
bring his voice in, you know, I don't
think he's done that since Lost Highway,
but you know, but don't quote me on
that because, you know, I'm already
apparently a fake fan because I had no
idea that he did this for this movie and
this, and this movie is like absolutely
perfect for his kind of whole vibe,
Tina: yeah,
Emily: he got,
Tina: is great writing music
Emily: yeah, I mean,
Tina: if you're you know If you're a freak
and you like things to feel, make you
feel disturbed and atonal and dissonant.
Emily: there's a really great
sleep mix on YouTube that's
all his, like, ambient stuff,
it's like Nine Inch Nails, Atticus Ross,
you know, everything from A Warm Place
to Ghosts to you know, his scores and,
Tina: Social network.
Emily: Social network.
Yeah.
Jeremy: If people need more,
Tina: thinking about Facebook.
Ha
Jeremy: more tips on creepy stuff to
listen to as they're going to sleep,
where can they find you online?
Emily: You can find me@megamoth.net
mega Moth on Patreon,
mega Moth on on Instagram.
And Trent Mesner, if you're out
there, if if I, I would love for
you to score with me, as long
Ben: Did you just
proposition Shred and Reznor?
Emily: sure he is used to it.
As long as it's cool with his wife.
She's awesome, too.
Marikeen Monteague Reznor.
She's absolutely gorgeous,
wonderful, beautiful.
Jeremy: And, uh, Ben, while we're here,
uh, where can people find you and is there
anything you want to say to Trent Reznor?
Emily: VenKahnComics.
com.
Ben: Yeah, read my comics.
Tina: I want, to say to Trent
Reznor that he sounds great on Pass
the Mission, the Tori Avis song.
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that was a big
thing back in the day.
Everyone's like, Oh, Trent Reznor and
Tori Amos are dating and having sex.
And I'm like, you know, when I
was 14, I'm like, no, he's mine.
But then now I'm like, go.
Tori Amos?
Fuck yeah.
Get it.
Tina: Ben, where can
people
find you
Emily: com.
It's
Ben: BenKahnComics.
com.
Just, Google.
Don't tell Google, because that's useless.
Just, just find my shit.
You know, Captain Lazerhawk
and El Cambo and Renegade Rule.
Yeah, check out Renegade Rule.
That shit's still good.
Emily: all good, and get your hands on it.
Jeremy: Absolutely.
You can find me, on Twitter and
Instagram at jrome58, on BlueSky
and Tumblr at jeremywhitley.
My, uh, new book, The Cold Ever After,
is already out for you in the future.
It's still in the future
for me at this point.
But it is out from Titan Comics.
Go pick it up, go buy it.
Help us, make money and make comics.
You can also still find the Dog Night
out there by myself and Bree Indigo.
Of course, you can find the podcast on
Patreon at Progressively Horrified, on
our website at progressivelyhorrified.
transistor.
fm.
And I have proghorrorpod on Twitter
where we'd love to hear from you and
speaking of loving to hear from you.
We would love that if you would rate
and review this podcast wherever you
are listening to it, good reviews
help us reach new listeners, which
then helps us make more podcasts.
Thanks again, as always,
to Tina for joining us.
Tina, it's always lovely to have you.
Tina: Y'all are going strong.
You've been doing
Emily: you.
Tina: a second.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: Yeah, a few seconds even.
Emily: several, multiple seconds.
Ben: We're still at like,
like a good slasher villain.
You can't keep us down,
Emily: no, no.
We're back.
Progressively Horrified X in space.
Jeremy: We've been at the bottom
of that lake a few times, but
we just keep getting back out.
Emily: Yeah, yeah,
Jeremy: All
right,
Emily: can keep us down.
Ben: Started from the bottom.
I don't know.
We're
Jeremy: a few times.
Keep
Emily: We're multi leveled.
Jeremy: back down.
Ben: having, started from the
bottom and we're having fun.
Jeremy: All right, thank you as
always to all of you for listening,
and until next time, stay horrified.